all right
tim welcome to the podcast cool thanks
thanks for having me carl
yeah thanks thanks for joining me um so
i wanted to jump in right away and uh
get to get to know you a little bit get
to know about
um your company red siege so you
you founded this company can you talk a
little bit about uh you know that story
when
when did you uh start the company and
what was kind of the premise of
uh of starting it sure yeah i mean i
the security wasn't my sort of original
i don't know passion necessarily i mean
i didn't because i didn't know it was a
thing i watched sneakers like everybody
else i thought that was cool and then it
kind of
went dormant in the back of my mind for
i don't know a long time ago now
however long ago that was so it started
off in
control systems of all things got into
uh
development hated that i liked it but i
don't like trying to chase down the bugs
and then into networking love that
but uh there's nothing more soul sucking
than trying to
figure out latency issues like it's
absolutely it's slow
what does that mean right and trying to
chase that down and i would
and that was a little bit cowboy like
hey we got a thing let's fix it
like we need to change control like
let's just take care of this
which was good most of the time
so i mean the nice thing with with being
offensive now
is we can make changes in production
right now of course we would don't want
to have any sort of negative impact
but uh it eventually just sort of got
into uh to security but i've pen tested
for uh well over a decade now i should
some point do that math
and i always had this itch like even
when i was sort of young that i always
wanted to
sort of start my own company or do
something like that
my dad has owned companies my uncles
have done companies so it's sort of just
an entrepreneurial thing that's kind of
in your blood huh in the blood right
yeah
so i'm like you know what at some point
i want to do this
so um gosh going on we're in our fourth
year now
i was like you know what i think it's i
think it's do or
do or do or die like at some point you
just gotta
kind of kind of gotta go for it and it
was an interesting experience
i asked john strain a dear friend of
mine
i'm like hey so uh what do you think
about do this
his first thing was well first off don't
no you're not gonna listen to me so
let's chat
so he he gave me all such a great uh
insight there on things to do and things
not to do
it's a lot of work um
a lot more work than kind of a thought
but the same time it's
super rewarding um it's sort of like
your baby and you're just kind of
cultivating and growing this thing
and and um adding team members and
getting some of the the cool team
dynamics and
such that that has been tremendously fun
but it's also been hard like you know
small company you're the the person in
charge especially when you're really
small like
the vacation times are not like they
were before where you just
disappeared for a week or two right like
that's that's that's not
that's not a thing um so there's always
a little there's a little bit of
checking in it it's we're getting big
enough now where
we can kind of take a little bit of
extra step back i can take a little bit
extra step back because i've got some
people who can step up and take care of
a lot of that responsibility so that's
nice to finally start getting some of
that that that breath
get a breather in there um but
it's been a fantastic it's been a fun
experience yeah go ahead and for folks
that
that don't already know can you tell us
a little bit about what red siege does
sure yeah so um yeah company i founded
was red siege
we do all kinds of offensive things so
we do pen testing
that means network pen testing internals
externals
web pen testing mobile
red teams assumed breach and some purple
in there so
kind of all the offensive-ish or things
really closely related to uh to
offensive
uh security so we uh you know the
the the term i always people ask what do
you do like i'm a penetration tester
and then they giggle and you're like no
that's not a crappy pickup
i've heard all the jokes so you can skip
all those
right but it's we do all the the hacking
and it's it's
it's a lot of fun the technical
challenges are a lot of fun and then now
more recently the the business side is
is a tremendously enjoyable experience
so what made you what made you take that
leap of you know uh it sounded like you
were doing pen testing for
another company for a while and then
you're like you know what i'm gonna i'm
gonna
i'm gonna do this like what made you
kind of go all in
and say you know i'm gonna do this yeah
i mean i also teach for sans so the nice
thing like it wasn't just a jump off the
cliff
shift and hope you hope right because
i've got this this
really nice safety net of teaching for
sans even if like no clients come in
we're not going to be that off so that
was
something that i really needed to to
make that
i can't even call it a leap because it
was like maybe like a slightly larger
step because i'm not
you know going as far in and the risk is
significantly lower
but it was just something that i've
always wanted to do and it's been
something just nagging me saying look at
some point
you got to do this and i looked at you
know my age
where we were in the industry family i'm
like look it's
literally now or it's going to be too
late to to
to take that not leap but
that big step it is a big step right
yeah i mean because it's a whole
different thing the uh there's
no one in charge there's uh you know
especially when you start off by
yourself and you're solo there's no one
to say hey should we do this differently
because it's
well it's it's just it's just you so
you've gotta kind of learn things on
your own figure some of those things
out find other smart people who are
doing the same sorts of things and
and talk to other people um i think
where we've been successful so far
almost in spite of me because i just i
just i have a lot of smart
friends who i can ask and and and learn
from
and hopefully learn from their mistakes
learn from maybe from their missteps
um and that's so much more important
that's not just business that's just
frankly life yeah but it was just one of
those things that i always
wanted to do and it at the beginning it
was
more difficult than i thought because
now
everything is from scratch right like
you write a report there is no template
yeah you write the template
hey you got a finding cool every single
finding is a completely new finding like
you don't have
any of the basic like hey out of date
software there's no copy and pasting
from anything else
that is solely on you so it it
that that spool up the contracting like
what does it look the contracting
process look like what do those
documents look like
right like i wasn't fully aware of
necessarily
some of all i knew the process but i
didn't have some of the paperworks we
had
attorneys to talk to friends to talk to
to get things like the master service
agreements and
statements of work and get those all
fleshed out
and then you know every once in a while
things go a little bit sideways like
okay
time to update the contracts so that
this
doesn't happen again um so there's a
whole learning process and things are
starting to get a little bit smoother
now that we've knocked off a bunch of
those red rough edges with
you know not quite missteps but near
maybe near misses
and things like that and now we've got
some of those processes in place
and templates that we've got
uh some basic processes in place
you know if i if i come across old
software i can
i've got a template for that specific
finding it's not
right this whole bloody thing from
scratch so the reporting's a little bit
easier
still plenty of work there and still
nobody loves reporting but
you know a lot of you gotta do it gotta
do it
so um so when you called your friend and
you said hey i'm gonna start this
company and you said no
don't do it but here's some advice uh
did he give
what was what were some of the takeaways
was his advice good like now
you know four years later you're you're
you're doing it like did you
take some pieces from him that were like
oh yeah he was totally right on this or
maybe he wasn't right on on these things
or maybe it was completely different
experience than
you know the advice he gave you yeah i
mean it was
a lot i mean honestly i kind of forgot
what he said because it was a little bit
of a blur
so i used to go back all the time like
hey what's this what do you think about
this
um one of the the biggest
this this one was kind of a leap was
hiring the first person because now you
go from
hey it's just me right and if i sink
this ship i'm the only one on it
and i can figure out a way out right but
now i've got mike was the first
person on our team mike's now on the
team if this ship
sinks it's not just my family that goes
down i'm now taking somebody else
down with me and we keep adding more and
more people you're like man this
this bow's getting pretty heavy right
and um
sort of that process of bringing people
on board the most
miserable experience is i mean
given that we're a virtual company is
dealing with all of the different
states so like north dakota
has three there's north carolina one of
the two i forget if it's cory's and i
think it's kory state yeah north
carolina has
like three different ids that you have
to use in these different systems
and then like north dakota you can't you
have to get workman's comp
through the state of north dakota not
from someplace else but all these other
little tiny things are like oh my gosh
this just is soul sucking and it doesn't
help the business in any way shape or
form
right so how many different states are
you in
um texas florida
north carolina north dakota virginia
i think that's it yeah and then you got
to go and research like okay what are
the things i have to do in order to do
business in the state and that
that seems like a lot of a lot of time
sucks i i know i mean i had a startup
and i i went through all that stuff too
of like
okay what what filings do i gotta do
like what things like how do you set
this thing up
and and uh you know we were able to find
um
there was a thing called clerky that
kind of helped us with like you know
setting up the
because we did a c corp we we you know
went a little bit
because like the idea was that you know
in order to like we were going to want
to raise money at some point so in order
to raise money a lot of investors want
to see a c-corp but we're like
oh this is really complicated you need a
lawyer and all this and we were lucky
enough to find this clerky thing that
was
was like you know basically made it
really easy to incorporate in delaware
which is where all the startups
incorporate because it's the easiest
place to do it so
um but yeah it's it's it's there's all
these little things like that and uh
you know i was talking to a a friend of
mine who has
he has a business with uh he sells birds
like all different kinds of birds and he
was telling me about
you can have a black swan
or or you can't have a white swan you
can't have a white swan
you know but you can have a black swan
on it but not a white one you know like
just like all these like weird
rules in different states and all these
types of things and
yeah those are really difficult things
to
to navigate they they should make it a
lot easier well
yeah no because that was a thing that
i'm like i i
that i think that is the single most
surprising thing
was the difficulty working across
different states because i mean texas
was relatively easy
we don't have a a personal state income
tax
so there was no i had to set that up
right now plenty of other states do
which that one wasn't necessarily hard
but then there's unemployment insurance
and workman's comp and i thought
workman's comp people will work from
home i don't need workman's comp well
that worked well until they got fined by
the state of north dakota
for not having working with comp because
mike works from home
and i mean we eventually frankly just
relatively recently switched to a peo
where technically we're all employees of
this sort of intermediary that's owned
by
us and another company long story short
is they just handle all the payroll
stuff because okay it's an on-boarding
and it just makes my life i mean you pay
for it
but realistically it saves money because
of the time and then
healthcare and then you can focus on
what you do best
you know you don't have to worry about
that stuff so that was one of the best
pieces of advice that i got from john
and ann from other people he's like look
delegate
the stuff that you're not good at don't
try to save
10 bucks by trying to do something that
you absolutely hate
right or whatever the number is and i'm
like look managing all these various
states and
paying all this it's a pain in the butt
it doesn't it doesn't
help make the company better it doesn't
help with growth
it's a a speed bump let somebody else
take care of that so you know we pay a
little extra to have that peo take care
of it but
it's made my life a lot less stressful
and i can focus a lot more on the
business
focus a lot more on the technical side
as well
so if there's if there's pen testers out
there and they're listening to this and
they've been thinking about you know
like maybe i want to start a company um
you know and and they're kind of you
know but they're they're
they're comfortable in the position that
they're at at the company they're
working for
um you know what kind of advice would
you give to them and
to help them make the decision on
whether or not they they'd want to
um you know start their company is there
is there any kind of uh
advice you'd have to anyone like that
yeah i mean
the being the
sort of the traditional employee is nice
right i mean
you're technically you're beholden to
the company but the same time
you get vacation time you get days off
right
in some respects that that
ease also means that it's well the
responsibility shift is there a little
bit so
now if like if i especially back in the
the olden days
if i took vacation there's no paycheck
coming in right whereas if you've got a
day job you take some vacation like the
check
still comes in um you take that time off
and it
it's not there you don't take care of
all the little pieces there's no one to
necessarily kind of
fall back on right like i have plenty of
friends
who um started their own business and
then got behind on invoicing
i don't think it's fun but that's
literally the piece that brings in the
money
right so now like i i will jump on that
as quick as possible i don't enjoy it
but take that spoonful of medicine
because that's how i pay myself and
frankly everybody else right
the big thing is before you take that
leap
make sure you've got clients or have a
way to get some of the clients
right because i know i've known some
other people who are like hey let's try
this thing like and they're like how do
you find clients
you you needed to have some of that up
front right like that's not just this
thing where you're just like hey let's
go on the internet and google
clients and they show up um
google adwords yeah um again i
was fortunate enough to be in a place in
teaching with sans there's a little bit
of name recognition out there that helps
i had friends and i did some subcontract
we did some subcontracting work
this year i think we've done very very
little but that's definitely sort of a
transition as you oftentimes start off
doing a lot of subcontracting work and
then rolling into your own thing but the
subcontracting work i mean if if
you're the prime if their business goes
down guess what who's the first person
to go
and it's going to be the subcontractors
right i mean that's the whole purpose of
having
subcontractors is so that they can burst
so you know keep an eye on the economy
make sure you're not stepping into it i
wouldn't
suggest maybe starting it here quite yet
you know
we're at the end of 2020 at this point
2021
um could be a little bit of a downturn
but um
make sure another some other advice i
got both from
john from from ed scotus kevin johnson
and then other people
other people who own their own companies
is
keep some money in the bank where if
the company goes sideways for a couple
of months you can still
pay yourself pay everybody else so we we
sit on it fluctuates depending on the
time of year
three to six months of cash so that
literally if nothing comes in for the
next few months we still
pay the bills and it helps you keep
saying
the stress levels are you know sort of
gone like hey slow moth cool
but let's let's hunker down and i can
still sleep and i can still be refreshed
right even when it is a little bit
slower um a lot of people don't
like that because it's weird to look
over and be like you know that's a large
sum of money in that bank account
right like we but at the same time like
look this is
for the company that if things go
sideways
everybody's still getting paychecks and
it just is what it is
it's there and uh yeah
yeah well thank you for that that that
advice i think that's that's
some really good things to think about
if uh
if you are thinking about you know
making that leap like you want to make
sure that you
you know you do it right you know think
it through and understand
what the undertaking is um
and then i just kind of wanted to switch
gears a little bit and talk a little bit
about
what are the things that you've been
seeing over the last uh
few years and like how has your you know
pen
testing strategies uh evolved uh you
know over the last couple years what are
some of the things that you've
you've done um differently and what are
some of the kind of the new strategies
that you guys are employing
yeah i mean so a number of years ago i
mean
five six years ago the traditional sort
of pen test was
super common so we start with some sort
of internal access
if it's an internal pen test and
we go from there then there was kind of
a shift at least in
my experience maybe someone else has a
different experience but in my
experience
it was a big shift then to the red team
right so you have to fight to get that
initial access which is nice because it
more realistically represents what's
happening in the real world
um transition there but i'm
sort of seeing a transition from that
more into the assumed breach
the red team is a lot of fun but there's
a lot of
waiting so you have to craft a payload
and then convince somebody to click it
right you send send this email
and you're like well is this person on
vacation did they get caught by a spam
filter did they click it but then
not getting the connection back right
what exactly is going on and there's a
lot of sort of
in that time just waiting
and even if it goes relatively quickly
it still can take a lot of time to
develop those payloads to get the
evasions to get
whatever it may be so in my
more recent experience in fact i sort of
steer people away from red teams to some
extent
um more to the assumed breach we're like
look
let's just assume this thing hits right
at some point someone's gonna click on
it at some point you know
some bad guy malicious actor out there
is to develop a payload
and it's going to hit let's start from
there
right because because in the real world
that's what we're seeing we're seeing
fishing is the predominant way in we're
seeing a trusted insider
as well right which realistically
is sort of the same for the assumed
breach right we're starting with
the access as a user whether it be
phished whether it be a malicious user
let's start from from that point and
then continue and we can save some of
the time
and therefore money of the fishing piece
up front and the payload development to
some degree
and i find it to be a little bit more
efficient and we could be a
lot quicker and more efficient and we
can find a lot of the same
sorts of things so we start with that
access
and i think one of the other big things
that we've seen over the years too
is it used to be that the cool thing to
do is to go for the
extreme privilege like hey i want in i
want to get domain admin i want to be
the king of the entire network and
it's sort of uh i mean i don't want to
say maturity but it's sort of a maturity
in a pen test life cycle as you become a
pen tester and move through it
like you know what that domain admin is
useful
but it's more of a cool trick at the end
because you can do a lot of the same
sort of thing
without necessarily having to to get
that
extreme permission those rights without
throughout the
entire organization you might land on
for example an engineering person's
computer and that person has access to
the intellectual property those drawings
well as an attacker the attacker no
longer needs to move they can just
simply
look and we see time and time again that
these file shares or whatever it might
be have
overly shared files where
anybody inside the organization right
steven accounting or sally and marketing
could just go to file share and be like
cool let's grab a bunch of this stuff
and now you have a breach right now
you're in the news have you lost
everything
absolutely not have you lost enough to
be in the news
yeah maybe right or have some sort of
negative impact or fines or something
like that so i think those are some of
the other
benefits to that sort of assumed breach
model
so when you do the assumed breach are
you still doing some of the
red teaming stuff as well or is it just
um you know you start out with uh kind
of
working backwards from there's a breach
how do we what do we do now type thing
or is it both
yeah we've had clients do both so we've
had some where hey let's start the
assumed breach but we want to be
quote very red meaning we want you to go
very low
and slow um so we'll we'll seed access
to this business
particular system we want to see kinder
defenders detect
as you move or as you exfiltrate um
or lateral movement
attempt to log in whatever it might be
those of course are going to take a
little bit longer because we want to be
much
more um
specific i can't think of the right word
uh much more much choosier on the exact
commands we use and when we do them and
how quickly we do them
whereas others we'll do them fast kind
of like the pen test
we're like look let's rip through this
to be as efficient as possible
in a gold and attempt to find a lot of
these high risk
findings um and deliver
the the report that shows that the
business risk i think that one of the
other big benefits
with the assumed breach versus the
internal pen test is
traditional internal pen test we set up
on the network and we start scanning the
network
at no point is the the attacker going to
be on the network
running you know scanners across the
network it's too it's too loud
right and oftentimes as we talked about
phishing or that trusted insider
they essentially start with access so
we're spending times a little bit more
misguided at least in my opinion with
the sort of traditional test
gotcha um and is so i mean
is has there any been has there been
anything
uh new as far as uh attack
uh attackers like any ways in i mean you
mentioned fishing and
i think fishing has always been like the
number one way to get in
is you know tricking a user into
clicking something and then now they're
in right
um is there anything else that's like um
that's happened since
i don't know since covet or anything
that's uh that's newer out there that
you've
noticed over the last couple years sure
the cobit has changed things dramatic
dramatically because of the
the work from home many people were in
the office and now they moved to home
which means remote access and
a lot of work some organizations had no
remote access or a minute minimal remote
access or
if they had it it didn't scale to the
degree that people needed
so you know the access mechanisms
weren't there the monitoring wasn't
there for these systems uh and we've
seen people just
like hey we've got this windows server
let's just set up remote desktop on the
internet
and we're seeing a lot of bad guys just
jumping on these windows systems with
remote desktop rdp
logging in you know try a couple of
credentials get in and then
game over uh vpn
a lot more vpn users right the average
person inside
maybe a company let's say a receptionist
or something
they don't need vpn access
right and plenty of other people who
didn't need vpn access now
literally everybody does so there's like
a lot more uh
exposure there maybe some of those
systems like hey let's move this
to the cloud move it online and we don't
have the security set
and configured correctly and there's
additional exposure there so we're
seeing a lot of that and we saw of
course
a lot of the phishing emails around
covid
now that i have a personal opinion like
hey you know the
attackers are doing that but if i'm
doing a fishing exercise there's a
ethical and moral boundary where i'm
like you know what
using that for our fishing exercise
doesn't seem right right
where in my personal opinion do no harm
and if i'm causing someone to not take
the proper safety precautions
even though it's for the good of the
test it doesn't
sit well with me sure
yeah that's that's that's really
interesting people just spinning up the
remote desktops and
on the internet and huh i i guess so
yeah
i yeah i guess there is a lot more
exposure with more people connecting
from home is there is there easy things
that companies can do to mitigate this
or is i mean it kind of seems like you
have to
make sure you have a you know a a good
plan in place to make sure that you're
you're thinking about all these security
issues that
you know couldn't potentially happen
right yeah
and that's and that's the problem is
given time
people probably could have planned
better but it was literally like you
know a
thursday or whatever it was and they're
like boom tomorrow
we go online right and so there was no
time to plan
so it was get this thing in and then
we'll plan afterwards and they try to
shoehorn this stuff and then once it's
up
now trying to switch it to the right way
is more difficult
um and then another piece associated
with that too if i'm all of a sudden
setting up
additional vpn for people maybe
initially everyone had two factor
well now i've got a whole bunch of
people who didn't have vpn maybe they
don't have tokens for them
um they don't know how to use them they
they don't have it so
we've got you know maybe step back in
security as we start to distribute some
of those extra
tokens to people so it was a
interesting change it was it was kind of
beautiful though to see
some of the adaptation by people to to
get ready
but at the same time i mean it it was
it's brutal right people are still
getting their sea legs in this whole
thing trying to still get
you know remote and cloud and whatever
it might be
set up to service their users and their
customers yeah no
it's been really interesting i know um
my wife was telling me like it would
have taken
she's like it would have taken our
company like four years to figure out
how to do remote stuff but we had to
figure out how to do it in a week
you know like so people had to adapt
quickly and they had to and
and as a result sometimes there are
those those missteps you don't you can't
think of everything right so it's you
know
you you do what you can with what you
got and uh
but you know now that uh we kind of
ripped the band-aid off now is the time
to make sure you go back and
you know dot your eyes and cross your
keys and all that right well it's some
of the other interesting pieces there
too like i saw a bunch of stuff
i think a little bit less so these days
but i had companies asking me like well
how do you keep an eye on your employees
to make sure they're getting their work
done
and they wanted essentially spyware
on the systems to make sure like some
some i heard about would like to
look at your the webcam or the camera on
the laptop and see if somebody's sitting
behind the desk
and you know there's much
deeper issues than the security issues
right
and sort of my model i mean we've been
virtual since
the company started and i've been remote
for um
gosh a decade now and it's a different
management style it's a different work
style and you have to look at look are
they
is there output there's no output
they're not doing their work
right exactly other people are like is
your butt in the desk
i don't care if your butt's in the desk
if you're getting if you're getting
your job done in a timely fashion
i don't care if you have your butt in
the desk
right and um when people sort of move to
that
that model it's a little bit different
like i got one of my guys who loves to
go hunting and fishing and go for walks
and he'll
you know middle of the day pop smoke but
then he'll work in the evening or
whatever just just because that's what
he loves to do another guy who likes to
travel
um maybe in the the after times he'll
pop into you know random country and do
some work from there because
it doesn't matter like just just get the
work done but we see a lot of those sort
of
old ideas of i can stick my head out of
my office and gaze upon the people in
the cube farm and if they're there
they're working it or not
then of course the people side too
[Music]
at least for me i remember when i
switched to work from home
i had a horrible time three the first
three months was
miserable i didn't know how to split
work
from life i i was always
i mean i'd be at my desk and like hey
you know i can finish this later because
i work from home and i'd be on google
and then later like i would take my
laptop's living room cause i'm like hey
i'm watching this but i need to get some
work done
i was like working all the time but
getting less done
and it was just it was it was miserable
until i
learned to set some of those boundaries
and adapt there
right so it's it's been interesting
that's for sure
yeah it definitely has been an
interesting time and we've all had to
deal with it and adapt and
and yeah so we'll we'll we'll see what
happens and
how much of this will carry over until
you know after there's a vaccine
and and how much you know remote stuff
will probably
i mean a lot of people i think are
finding that you know
some of it's working you know and so i
think a lot of it will stick around
and um but it'll be interesting to see
how this kind of changes
uh our work styles and and all that kind
of stuff
well i'm wondering that too because i
think that's going to be fascinating to
see like i wish i would have thought
about it
months ago and invested in like uh
i don't know what you're calling but re
remote workplace
right like the the place where a bunch
of people can come like you grab your
laptop you show up at this place they
got the cube and desks and chairs and
coffee place and you could work there
and simulate
the office because i think as you said
you're going to see a lot more of that
we're seeing sort of this
migration from expensive areas of the
country to quite literally anywhere
else yeah right and i think that's going
to be an
interesting transition i'm kind of
curious how that
kind of plays out long term i mean it
was
i expected that to happen at some point
but this is definitely a fast forward
button like hey
we're making this change now and i don't
know if we ever go back
right right yeah it's uh yeah it's
definitely accelerated the way that
we've
uh yeah i think i saw i heard like um
i thought this was an interesting thing
that uh and
it was i think the ceo of airbnb he was
talking about
how he thinks in in the future people
will
spend you know their work on their
screens but do their leisure time
away from screens and doing more travel
and stuff because everyone just like
works on a computer all day and
there'll be less people watch you know
less watching tv
and netflix and stuff and and more
getting out and doing stuff it's kind of
flipped so you go to
leisure and you you know come home to
work kind of thing and i was like huh
that's a
that's an interesting flip-flop of of
you know the way that we do things you
get home from work and you turn on the
tv versus like i've been looking at a tv
all day i need to get away you know i
thought about that aspect yeah yeah
that's interesting
i mean one of the things like for me was
switching to the to the remote
is after i finally developed some
boundaries like
we could go on this was still
you know still well actually that was a
long time ago but like even starting the
company
um you know it takes a lot of work to
get this thing going but we could go
places and afterwards i'm in bed like
hey let me crank out this report real
quick
and then let's go to the beach during
the day
um and then everyone's taking a nap in
the afternoon
let me get through a couple of these
things so i mean i wasn't working
full-time but i was still able to get
some of those
sort of things done other times like
we've gone to travel to go see family
and i didn't take
this was before when i had the the quote
normal day job and not my own thing like
i would just
work during the day because the kids
would play outside and my
like my brother or dad or whoever was
working we'd hang out in the evening
so it gave me more flexibility to to
i don't know see and travel and do
things but not necessarily take
vacation if you will right i mean
there's there's a there's an extreme
danger there where you can cross that
line and
never take vacation don't do that i've
been there
uh but it does give you exactly like
that like let's
jason on my team he'll go to thailand
and
box and then but then get his work done
at night so yeah yeah it's
yeah it'll be interesting to see what
happens um
so tim this has been a lot of fun um
do you have any like uh parting words
for our listeners any plugs you want to
make any
uh anything where you know people can
find you if they want to stay connected
with you
anything anything for the listeners yeah
yeah so i guess if you want to
reach out uh hit me up if you've got
questions on
hit me up on twitter tim uh medin that's
m e d i n so t i m
mike echo delta india november no one
can spell my name that's okay it looks
like timed in with two
two m's kind of uh timed in
yeah or uh if you want to drop me an
email timidredsiege.com keep that easy
because you can't spell my last name
right uh so just timid red seeds.com
don't worry about spelling red siege i
got the i before e and e before i
so uh yeah feel free to hit me up those
places and if you're at a conference
maybe at some point stop over say hi
cool yeah it'll be great to
meet you in person uh maybe at cyphercon
one of these days one of one of these
days when we're back in person doing it
so yeah i grew up
i grew up in uh central wisconsin
so my actually uh mike one of the guys
our mutual friend of ours
um did the listeners know mike yeah i
don't know
okay this is i mean it's a cyphercon
podcast
so we went to a football game no it
feels like ages ago
a packers game uh two years ago now
maybe
free what it was anyway yeah so i i miss
i miss being back in wisconsin
even in the winters i like the snow i
miss you know
skating skiing curling stuff like that
where are you now
i am east of dallas by a couple by two
hours okay
okay i say small town it's 600 it's a
hundred thousand people
but in texas that's a bump in the road
right like that's a hundred thousand
whatever
yeah lots of people in texas you know
cool well uh yeah thank you for taking
the time tim
and uh yeah hopefully i get to
meet you at one of these cons in person
and
until then uh take care
yeah look forward to it thanks again
thanks for having me kyle