my name is Amanda Charbonneau I am the
member Engagement Manager here at the
IAB I'm so happy to be here with you all
today for our very first live women
leading privacy section virtual session
women who inspire a career panel with ia
PP leaders while there are as many women
in the field of privacy as there are men
the truth is that women experience
unique challenges and hurdles the women
leading privacy section was created to
help serve our membership and advanced
women in the field of privacy if you're
an IEP team member we'd love for you to
consider joining and utilizing this free
member benefit to get access to the
session learn more on our website IPP
org you'll receive access to member and
section specific content and resources
just like our virtual session here today
and before we get started I'd also like
to mention if you're experiencing
technical difficulties there is a
support button in the top right hand
corner of your screen you'll be
connected to a Live Support Technician
and then the last 15 minutes of our
session will be dedicated to virtual Q&A
so we want to hear from you our virtual
audience if you have any burning
questions from our panelists that will
be your time to shine so speaking of our
panelists it's my privilege for me to be
here with you all today and the amazing
women to my right they bring together
their perspectives from the fields of
law government and technology and while
their backgrounds may be diverse the one
thing that they all share is that
they're outstanding leaders in their
respective fields I'd like to introduce
Rita Hymas our data protection officer
our research director and general
counsel here at the ia PP hi men we've
got Caitlin fantasy our senior privacy
fellow and then we have Kathy Scerbo our
vice president and chief technology
officer at you guessed it right here
having a pee pee ladies welcome thank
you thank you so much for joining us
today so as I mentioned you all come
from very different backgrounds Rita you
went to law school Caitlin you've got
your master's in public admin
and Kathy your background is in
mathematics but you've all found
yourself here at the ia pp working on
privacy so I want to dig a little bit
more into that Kaitlyn as a senior
privacy fellow can you tell us a little
bit more about your path and how working
in government shaped it and got you to
where you are today sure thank you so
much and first let me just say it's it's
quite the honor to be sitting here with
both of you to two leaders at the ia pp
that I just love working with so my
background in government so I recently
joined us you all know the ia PP about
six months ago after just about ten
years working on privacy for the US
government and so about 10 years ago I
was interviewing for a job at the u.s.
international trade administration in
trade policy which is what I wanted to
focus on and I interviewed with this
wonderful female leader in privacy
Kristin Jensi who heads up the digital
office of digital services industries at
the Department of Commerce and she
basically said you should come work for
us you should work on privacy and
cross-border data flows and I said
that's intriguing but you know I don't
know anything about privacy and she said
that's right we can teach you that um
and I promise privacy is going to be big
okay so lucky for me I I took her up on
that and started out working on privacy
and helping us companies comply with
foreign data protection laws and so over
ten years I basically covered every
region of the world doing privacy from
this trade angle at some point during
that span I had the good fortune of
working on the OECD rewrite of the
privacy guidelines so they they revamped
their privacy guidelines in 2013 and
that's where I met O'Meara today he held
the pen on that rewrite so that was kind
of my first introduction to someone who
now is a leader here at the IEP as well
the last
five years of my time I covered the EU
specifically I was involved in privacy
shield negotiations and then served as
the first privacy shield director so met
some awesome people along the way and I
think what kind of brought me to the ia
PP was engaging with IPP leaders and and
staff at the conferences around the
world and just really feeling like hey
the folks the folks here are are doing
some great work in terms of building
awareness and supporting the privacy
profession and so after after ten years
I thought okay I'm ready for a change
and so it kind of brought me here to IPP
all right well so I'm at the IEP P for
many of the same reasons that Caitlin is
which is it just seemed like a cool
place to work and it also seemed like
unlike Caitlin for me I was working in
privacy in in private practice and in
academia but it was an opportunity to
really focus on on the field of privacy
and gain more expertise and I had the
full opportunity to have before I came
here my path is very different from
Caitlin's geographically I've lived
around the United States but when I was
finishing law school my dream was to be
an environmental law lawyer like a lot
of law students and the reason for this
was that I was of course passionate
about the environment but also really
interested in science so I figured if I
get to do an area of law that's driven
by science that'll be interesting and it
is and it was over time just through
opportunism really my career took other
paths I got involved working in
intellectual property law which again
involves creativity and innovation and
sometimes a little science and the
privacy issues that started to percolate
into my career when I was in academia
actually at the University of Maine
which is how I got to know Trevor Hughes
and actually how I also got to know Oh
Mert na we invited O'Mara to come teach
I started to pay attention to the fact
that the science of today there's a lot
of biology still happening a lot of
innovation in biotech and whatnot but
because in
information technology an area of tech
and science is so pervasive working in
the field of privacy law scratches the
itch of always wanting to know what's
happening in science and tech but it's
different in the sense that issues of
privacy law are not unique to companies
that are necessarily innovating engaging
in trying to acquire intellectual
property rights or companies that are
involved in pollution or otherwise
needing the opportunity to take
advantage of environmental laws
privacy's everywhere every company
retail outfits that are selling coffee
and donuts have to know as much about
privacy in some ways as massive
multinationals so I thought this was so
much fun
here's an area of law that I can
practice regardless of who my clients
are and still constantly have to learn
about science and tech so that's
essentially what's fun about privacy and
I would just say that I got into it
really through relationships much like
Caitlyn said opportunism and
relationships and knowing Trevor and
Omer is how I ended up here yeah so I
guess I'm the poster child for one not
knowing anybody on privacy and to
knowing very little about privacy but
three I guess similarly being very
curious and wanting to do something new
and different and that's actually
probably my career I've been in tech for
thirty years I've done everything from
building apps infrastructure security
it's probably the closest to privacy
bringing bringing all those things
together in a company like the ia pp is
what brought me here the opportunity to
work in in a place that just culture is
amazing the women and the people here
are amazing but the you know the privacy
part actually I'm the newbie I'm the I
came partially to learn because I think
it's so if you're in technology in 2005
2006 2007 in security it was the new
thing it was the thing we were starting
to worry about and we're
security is now 15 years later I kind of
think privacy is where we were back then
and if we look forward that's where so
where privacy is going to be from a
technology perspective so for me I felt
like what a great opportunity to get
involved in in a time where it's
starting to shift more to tech some of
the the laws that are changing or
impacting all the different companies
the technology disruption that's
happening is actually causing some of
the privacy issues as we all know with
AI and and and in machine learning and
things like that so for me to come here
was a lot less about who I knew and just
I guess I feel very lucky that you know
it was three miles away and had really
no idea about privacy and now coming
here and recognizing I still don't know
a lot about privacy but what a
phenomenal opportunity for tech people
to get involved now I mean every company
to read this point every company is
going to have to be thinking about it
whether they're small and they're retail
or whether they're large and their
financial services so to be a part of
helping to find that and promote it and
improve it and and really just be a
voice to the tech community about why
it's so important is is pretty exciting
for me encourage you all to interject
ask questions you know keeping it casual
I want to note so before you all started
at the ia PP technically your roles
didn't exist in a formal sense so Rita
I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on the hot
seat because you've got the most titles
I have the most titles that didn't exist
I have three titles about how you sort
of shaped that shaped your role here at
the ia pp any challenges you've incurred
along the way look I assume some of the
reasons people might be tuning in today
is less to do with who we are and more
to do with how you can lessons learned
how do these things affect other people
who are maybe thinking about a career
path so I'd rather talk about it from
that perspective one of the
opportunities that is fun about working
at the IPP is that it is a small
business when I started here we were
fewer than 200 employees but it's also a
global
company so we have members all over the
world so that combination of small
business with a big footprint that's
growing like crazy both in terms of our
membership our customer base and also in
terms of the employees we need to staff
it that is a sweet spot for opportunity
to learn right and to take on new
responsibilities because companies that
are small and growing are always needing
new more and more assistance in support
things I didn't need before they
suddenly realize that they need and in
the case of a small business like the
IPP those needs may not amount to a
full-time job it's a piece of a job and
so if you want to learn fast start in a
small growing company and just be ready
and willing and able say I'll take that
I'll do that right and through that
willingness and I think open-mindedness
order like I and confidence let's be
honest sure I can handle that right
maybe hubris you you acquire new skills
and new opportunity and the titles are a
way of reflecting the fact that your
role is changed in the case of the DPO
role and we definitely wanted to signal
to our members that we take gdpr
seriously as a company not just as
something that we're teaching others but
that obviously we need to be in
compliance as well so DPO signals to our
members oh there's someone that I can
talk to if I have a question about how
of the IPP is using my data so that made
sense we needed you know a step up in
our privacy compliance role and the GC
thing trust me it's just because our CFO
is tired of signing contracts so we
wanted somebody else to do it so at the
moment it really is a contract
management role and the signatory
responsibilities I suspect it will grow
like many other things within a small
business but so purely from an advice
perspective I think people who in any
level of their profession who are ready
to make a lane change it's always a
great opportunity and I think Kathy I'd
love to hear from you that you know
coming from a larger institution to a
smaller one while you know the problems
are maybe smaller and the impact may be
smaller the opportunity to learn is
massive because suddenly you're playing
many different roles and you're seeing
so many pieces of the enterprise because
it's such a small that's completely
accurate I've been in large
organizations my whole career until now
and I would say I played different parts
along the way throughout as I mentioned
I have a vast you know vast background
in doing different things but they were
to your point like siloed like I worked
in security for a little while I worked
in building applications for a little
while I worked and actually process
improvement and technology procurement
and actually I would say her GC is
really read as GC role is very important
to me so I think it is kind of fun for
me and one of the reasons I chose to
come here at this point in my career was
to sort of show up as my whole like
everything my whole toolkit I can use in
my role as CTO and and having some not
to knock big corporations because I have
learned so much and there's so much
depth and breadth and opportunity I
moved around a lot in in the
organizations to continue to learn and
grow but to be able to show up and not
know today if I'm going to be wearing a
technology hat or maybe an HR hat
because there's something we need to
talk to them about or maybe you know
learning about a business organization a
business problem that needs to be solved
I just feel like there's there's so much
opportunity to do it all in one role and
defining you know defining the CTO role
has been really fun for me too it is
actually a part of my background is
taking on a new organization and
standing something up for new need like
I mentioned with security that was
something I spent a good deal of time in
in in 2005 6 7 I wish I could remember
the date but I can't remember it's too
far to just create that organization
that does that so creating new
organizations creating new roles
defining them has kind of been a part of
my my background in what I do but to be
able to do it here at a small company
there's a little more freedom so three
or four weeks in I started talking to
Trevor about the need for maybe a little
more concerted effort not concerted
effort but we're gonna say
in disciplines around some of the data
space that we were playing in
operationally for ourselves so now I
have a data team as well as a technology
team and and that's kind of exciting to
be able to just say oh we need that and
then be able to make it happen without
some of the larger corporation big big
red tape us kind of stuff again not to
knock big companies back but you can
move a little more quickly there's a
little I guess maybe a little more
pressure on you to because you are the
decision-maker and that can be a little
frightening as well but but so far it's
been it's been a ton of fun and created
I think creating this organization has
been one of the highlights of my career
I'd say what would you tell someone who
maybe feels a little bit reticent about
taking on a role that didn't exist
before them knowing that they have to
shape it and there's no rules or
guidelines or any of that what would you
tell someone oh I'd love to tackle that
um I guess my my advice would be to to
jump in and ask a lot of questions and
engage with the community in terms of
engaging with folks who are leaders in
that space and who can share their
thoughts and advice with you I feel like
the opportunity to learn from others who
are doing something that you have less
experience in is always so valuable and
if I can also just kind of piggyback on
what we were just discussing it for me
when I when I came in to the ia pp one
piece of what I was asked to do was to
lead our privacy engineering initiative
and to some extent this is an area where
Kathy almost hasn't learned from you and
so many others and I remember when I was
speaking with O'Mara and Trevor and
folks here about this role I said hey I
don't have the the technical skills I
don't have the the background in privacy
engineering myself and their advice and
kind of the way I've approached this was
exactly
to kind of learn from the community and
so I've had this incredible opportunity
and to me this is why I'm enjoying this
this new position enroll so much because
it's an opportunity to learn so reaching
out to academic leaders or industry
leaders our members around the world and
folks like you to try to understand the
pieces of the job that I have less
experienced in it to me that kind of
makes the role a constant learning
experience which I guess from my
perspective is what makes a role fun
yeah I think too in a lot of exactly
what you're saying what I've watched you
do the last six months it's less about
what you know and how you think about
learning and I think that's just that's
just probably any lesson in life is I've
been super impressed with how you've
tackled I I actually wouldn't know that
you didn't know what you just said I
sound like a lot of nose but I I didn't
know that you didn't know some of this
stuff because I do think it is I
actually am grateful to sort of have you
in that role because your research and
your that you have a broad community in
tremendously helpful to bring that
forward so so I do think it's a little
bit more of how you think and and how
you think about learning than
necessarily what you know right
completely agree um I spent 14 years in
academia at a law school and of course
when I was an undergrad I wasn't even
growing up like oh I want to be an
academic like that's the coolest job the
most important job there is is to be a
teacher and I suppose that's sort of
true what I think I appreciate now
though is that while those credentials
while that fundamental education is
crucial it absolutely crucial it changes
the way you think it teaches you very
very deep lasting fundamental base value
skills and it frankly gives you the
credential you might need for certain
jobs let's just be honest getting those
credentials is important that's not the
end of it you can't stop there and you
won't be able to stop there if you stop
there you're done like you're dead so
that's why there is even a market for a
company like the IEP that's why this
particular organization is so reflective
of our time I think because as you
continue through your career you're
gonna have to credential for something
else you're going to have to be willing
to maybe offer yourself a new level of
expertise or major again in something
that didn't exist before and we're not
this is not the end of it right there
will always be something new and
organizations that are more able to
respond to change which I think
certification bodies and membership
associations can do more easily than a
degree conferring institution there's a
role in this economy for institutions
like ours for organizations like ours
they provide you with the credential you
need to say yeah I did my homework and I
studied this topic here's my credential
to show for it but they more importantly
probably provide you with the ongoing
continuing education the network because
none of us even after we study for an
exam and take an exam actually know how
to do it and what the problems will be
that comes up in our career so you match
that with a network with people who are
more like you who are in a similar role
to you that won't be all the people you
went to graduate school with right
they've gone off and majored in their
own area
in their own so that ability to
continuously refresh who you need to
know in the moment as you progress
through your career is why there is even
a need for an IEP I think this is
absolutely I think this is a place to
where the law and technology probably
have been a little bit different and you
can correct me if you think I'm wrong
the last 30 years because I think as
you're talking I'm thinking geez if I
just graduated with my math degree and
thought I could you know 30 years for
just step into this role or any
technology role along the way with what
I knew then I mean it's just not
possible even even even my degree didn't
necessarily prepare me for you know my
first role or my second role or anything
technology has just changed so much the
last 30 years that you you haven't been
in technology for 10 20 30 years without
having to learn and now the acceleration
of the tech the change and everything
just makes it that much more critical to
be a little earner in that field and I
just think privacy like I said it at the
beginning privacy is just kind of now
the new thing that in addition to having
all this knowledge about different kinds
of technology how they work together
technology kind of comes in from the
side it's not about what you know it's
about how you do it similar to security
it's not necessarily about what you knew
but how you apply that security to
technology so that to me it you have to
be a continuous learner just to be in
tech Kalyn how much do you credit the
person that first hired you the woman
who first hired you for really shaping
everything else because she knew better
than you did at the time how would you
know that privacy would not yeah you
were willing to say well I respect your
opinion why not I'll jump in yeah no
it's it's a great question I give her a
ton of credit and you know she she
really saw it coming as some other folks
that we know and work with and did but
you know my my first year working on
privacy for the US government admittedly
was really slow and I remember
questioning that what what am i doing
you know she says gonna be big do I
trust that do I stick with it
and one year in all of a sudden Obama
launched the privacy blueprint and from
there everything just took off so yeah
there's these people along the way and I
would say just you know to give a shout
out to her in particular they're they're
women women leaders doesn't have to be
women out there who sometimes play a
more behind-the-scenes role in kind of
are there supporting others recognizing
others and I think a lot of people
credit her for for kind of launching
their careers in privacy and so ya know
I give her a ton of credit I think the
lesson here is really to just be a
consummate learner and be adept to
change I mean really is what I'm seeing
this the common thread and you know
Kathy I'd be curious have you had more
than one pivot in your career and for
someone who maybe is a little bit of
vers to change how does that sort of
shape up I'm a stronger leader and yeah
so um so the impact so many different
things that I am not adverse to change I
actually love change I lean in to change
sometimes to my own detriment perhaps I
you know that in the change curve
there's the folks who who really they
hold on tight to what they know and then
there's a folks who lean in you know
full on throttle changes change for
change sake is good I'm somewhere in
between but I do think I embrace change
quite a bit so for me like none of this
really scares me none of this really has
been tough it's been it's been an
adventure I've had probably gosh I want
to say maybe a dozen pivots in my career
and this just feels like one more but
again you know I think that's part of
for me the last 30 years being in
technology you had to continually pivot
and change I actually would say working
in big corporations gives you the
advantage to pivot quickly there's
there's a lot more opportunities to look
at things differently I I frequently was
the one that raised my hand to say oh
you need something new over there or I
was the one who they gave something
broken to to fix which when things are
broken you learn more so so I would say
I think if
I can't even name how many pivots there
were but I think that's kind of been my
experience that you pivot and you pivot
and you pivot and as technology grows as
new opportunities come there's maybe
different reasons that that happens that
even when my kids are young I probably
pivoted for one reason to be closer to
home I left Boston and came and worked
up in New Hampshire as they got older it
was easier for me to come in here or to
take a different role where I traveled a
lot so so some of it has nothing to do
with career and more to do with the your
life circumstances one thing I love
about the ia pp is it's about your whole
person not just showing up with a full
toolkit of what I have to offer the ia
PP but being able to go home at the end
of the day and and have that work-life
balance - with my family so so I don't
know that's a very meandering answer yes
lots of pivots that's one of our
cultural values here at the IAA pp and I
feel like women definitely have a
different perspective when it comes to
work/life balance and I'd like to sort
of hear more about your perspectives on
that if it's really impacted maybe the
roles you decided to take along the way
in your career paths and and give some
advice in perspective no I mean it's
it's a great question that so many
people I think both women and men have
to grapple with of course it has
absolutely you know impacted the
decisions I made I I remember sitting
down once for with you know a very
senior government official who was
exploring a position for me and I
remember her telling me well you know
you can't expect to leave before 7
o'clock at night I just had my first
baby and I said thanks so much this
sounds really exciting but it's not for
me right now you know and so we we make
choices I had the incredible opportunity
and I I'm hopeful that more and more
people will have this type of
opportunity which is after I had my
second child
I kind of faced that challenge and so
wanted to move from DC to New Hampshire
to raise my kids and be closer to our
family support network to help with the
work-life balance and so at the time I
went to my boss and I said you know
thank you at the Department of Commerce
thank you this has been awesome
but I need to quit because I'm moving to
New Hampshire to raise my family and I
was offered the incredible opportunity
to tell work full-time for the US
government and this was about six years
ago now and at a time when that really
wasn't done much in the US government so
it was completely novel for the first
year I barely told anyone because I was
so nervous about screwing it up so a lot
of the colleagues I worked with in DC
thought I was sitting in my office at
commerce you know on Pennsylvania Avenue
and just talking to them on the phone
when in fact I was in New Hampshire and
so that was really lucky for me because
it allowed me to not step out of the
workforce not completely change my
career which is what I thought I was
doing and you know stay in an exciting
field and better manage the work-life
balance by being closer to you know
extended family network so I'm hopeful
that as telework you know it's not novel
anymore more and more folks are doing it
in industry and government I'm hoping
that that might help in some respects
with some of those challenges I don't
know Halon isn't just lucky like they
probably wouldn't let just anybody tell
her you were a superstar and so they
would probably do anything they could to
keep you and now we get you so haha but
I guess my past once again I always want
to think about what are there any
lessons that other people can take I
don't know when I work with law students
my advice usually is whatever law career
you choose just make sure you're working
with people you really like so that's
not necessarily a work-life balance
question on the family versus work but
it's like a place to start oh I really
want to do this area of law but you know
what does it take I'm like you know the
best job you get my
actually be doing something else in law
but if you love the people in your
practice group you'll just love you know
workers comp or whatever because they're
so nice and so no it wasn't your
favorite thing that you studied in law
school but at least the people you work
with are kind and considerate and they
support you and they promote you they
give you good work they help you advance
like all of that is so much more
important than the thing you get to
think about all day long in my opinion
and it certainly worked for me to just
work with nice people that was really
the number one thing and then I did make
choices with my career to be able to be
in jobs where mostly the key issue here
was just pure flexibility can you leave
at any time because someone is throwing
up and the daycare is calling you or you
know because there's a cross-country
meet at 3:30 in the afternoon there very
inconvenient these school functions if
but you know but the right office the
right work environment appreciates that
not only are you going to leave but
you're also probably gonna get your work
done later or when it's you know you're
gonna get it done they trust you some of
that you have to earn but you can shop
for environments where that's part of
the norm and you look and you observe
and you ask in your interview and you
ask you know and clever ways to try to
figure out what is the culture there and
will it support the fact that I love my
work and I'm gonna get it done but I
also really love this life that I have
and the people that are in it outside of
the office
I just wouldn't want to ever work any
place that didn't allow me that freedom
yeah I love I love it just so much has
changed you know my kids are older and
so much has changed and I remember I
don't mean to be like the old person on
the couch but I remember when your
choice was you could leave and raise
your kids or you could you know work
7:00 in the morning to 7:00 at night and
some of the choices now we have big you
know back on technology its kind of
technology really it's the video
conferencing it's the laptops and
they've been around for a while but I I
think it's the change in the way we work
and everything has been enabled by
technology and I wish I really do wish
that we had had some of those options at
the time you know my choice I was happy
with my choice to stay in the career and
put my kids in daycare but it was hard
you know when I was in Boston
traveling to New Hampshire you'd get up
in the dark and you leave in the dark or
and you get up in the dark and you get
home in the dark you'd see your house on
the weekends really in the light and
that so I love the options that are
available to people today and i 100%
agree rita you got it's it's not just
the content of the work or the subject
of the work and this kind of gets back
to your other question about if you're
building a new organization how do you
not be afraid of that well it's your job
you know figure out it could be it needs
to be the holistic picture it needs to
be the people you work with the subject
you're working with the ability to make
sure you can go to the track meet or the
soccer game or anything like that and
and that's gonna be what makes you happy
at the end of the day it's personal to
us too and the to take that to another
level how do you as a leader so now
you're responsible for other employees
they want to have a work/life balance
you're going to have to support that but
you also need to set limitations and
expectations so Kathy you've probably
overseen more people than any of us what
where are the challenges that you faced
in so trying to set the limits on taking
advantage but also of course keeping
your good people happy because that's
part of being a good leader I mean you
want your best employees to stick around
so you want them to feel as though this
is you know the right environment for
them yeah absolutely I think there's
there's no secret to it I think part of
it is treating people like adults I mean
I've always been frustrated with the
absolute of rules you absolutely have to
be here at 8:00 and you have to leave at
4:00 or you absolutely have to show up
this meeting on time are you absolutely
like if you treat people like adults I
don't need to approve your vacation time
you know what your workload is you know
you know you know how to how to get your
work done and make sure you have
coverage when you're out and things like
that and actually as a leader it's a lot
easier for you to lead people and when
you treat them like adults then when you
treat them like you need to have all
those rules and everything I think role
modeling is important too and this is
actually one I struggle with I'm an
early bird um I am up between 4:30 and
5:00 and I will come into the office
because I don't have little kids at home
anymore that I need to worry about
and I think sometimes people think uh
you know you know she's working long
hours she expects me to work long hours
so I have to consistently say I am NOT
the poster child for for work-life
balance if you have little kids I'm not
so you have to be I think open and
honest and I think the other thing is
you have to be like EQ in a leadership
role is so important understanding that
you don't have ten people that all have
the same things you don't know what
someone's going through when they're not
physically in the office or when they're
in the office but they have a sick
parent or or sick spouse or something
going on that they can't control
financially and it's in the back of
their head and you have to be willing to
listen to understand and to make those
accommodations and when other people
come to you and say hey that's not fair
it's hot it can put you in a bind
because you're not privacy right tell
people what someone else is going
through but you have to get them to
understand that as a leader you have
listened to this person and you
understand that their circumstances that
need a little accommodation and things
like that so it's not it's not a secret
answer it's not it's it depends but I
mean I'm sure you've seen these things
before as well and exactly Caitlin's
example of I need to go to New Hampshire
I need to raise my kids differently this
is well we're gonna accommodate you
that's a that's a leader that listen cuz
she's well that's because she's totally
but I mean that's otherwise Caitlin's
like sorry I have other options but if
you but I'm sure part of why she's worth
it is cuz you worth it by the way she
was treated that way she but it's
because she was treated like she was
valued and she was motivated to work
hard and and if and if you were working
if you were working long hours and you
weren't being treated well but you we've
been like yeah thanks for working from
home I'll find something in New
Hampshire so it's it's it's both sides
but I think you know you got a listen
you gotta learn and you got to recognize
everybody's different they create so
much loyalty if you do that I think you
know show trust in people and provide
those accommodations when they're needed
then folks are that much happier with
their jobs and they give that much more
back so absolutely
very interesting well Kathy I'm gonna
put it on you as a self-proclaimed
privacy new beer you share with our
virtual viewers any challenges that
you've come across being new to your
role and how you don't tell the ones
that are privileged and confident yeah
it's well it's been an interesting
challenge anyway to come in to a
leadership role in an organization at
the level and really not be a privacy
expert to feel that well on the one hand
I do have the confidence to believe I
belong here and I'm helping I do also
worry at times that people think oh she
doesn't know anything about privacy you
know what's up with that
so I I do think that's it's probably
been myself inside my challenges have
been built inside and and I think you
know interestingly enough it's probably
been less about the shift to privacy
although it's just you get back to that
ground where you're new and learning
again so you have to build up your
expertise and your confidence and know
how to apply it to your technology or
your role and more about my shift and
maybe this isn't where you want me to go
manda but my shift has been more going
from corporate to a small company and
and figuring out how to make decisions
and stand behind them and and do that
while I'm learning the business and I
think that that's probably been the
hardest for me is making sure that every
day I show up and I've some buddy
doesn't feel like what why why is she
making that decision what was she
thinking and hat doesn't she understand
that CCPA won't let that happen or you
know or something like that you know I
just
and I insinuate myself in places that I
don't know necessarily that people want
me but I think you know Here I am
Caitlyn engineering we're gonna talk
about vendor management so but yeah I
really appreciate your insertions
because I feel like one you have the
confidence to insert yourself in
situations where maybe you aren't the
subject matter expert I kind of want to
touch on the whole imposter syndrome
things that you know a lot of women do
face men as well
but I'd be curious to know you're all
very high up in your field respected
leaders how you combat that like I don't
know what I'm doing but I need to look
like I do so how do you how do you
navigate those waters cuz I'm sure
actually took an acting class in college
and that helps a little bit and no I
really did take an acting class I was
really bad but you're the Quickie I was
serious about this where are my in
situations where I admit that I don't
know what I'm talking about
probably everyday at least a little bit
you know it's about the dynamic of who
I'm around and if I feel like I know
more than the other people in the room
because I've done it for longer so again
I work a lot with students with junior
people just entering the profession just
on a day-to-day basis or with people who
aren't whose jobs at the company are not
privacy they look to me to know what
that is and we work together
collaboratively to solve the problem so
again we're a team of like one and then
everybody else in their domain so I
would say the situations where I most
feel like I am out of my league are the
technical ones and my solution is just
to confess my ignorance and ask people
to gently teach me what I don't know
because I'm more dangerous if I pretend
that I do right and I try to make
because in making privacy the answer the
legal if you will or compliance answer
often depends on how the technology
works
they're completely interrelated if the
technology works this way well then we
either have to change that or we have to
inform people or we need consent or
whatever the situation is so that's
where it struggles all the time I'm
learning new things about oh I didn't
know it did that and what is that by the
way what is that word that you just used
mean sometimes I'll run and look it up
quietly after the meeting but yeah I
think I think instead of pretending and
having a show of us it's the opposite
which is to say please explain that to
me so that I can do my job better and
therefore the company can you know be
more secure you put the company first in
that instance rather than try to pretend
that's
how I per said I want to build on two
things that you just said there in terms
of the the lack of technology I feel
like that would be one of my
recommendations kind of going out to the
privacy field that if I could do it
again I would get some technical
expertise and I just feel like looking
forward hey you know I perhaps
self-interested ly see privacy
engineering but the fusing of tech and
privacy as where the profession is
headed and I think that those in the
legal field or the policy field would
really benefit from from getting some
education in the tech space but but but
on the imposter syndrome I have to say I
feel like I've tried to take you know
asking questions is always good but I
feel like that impostor syndrome thing
is super real and that I at least feel
it all the time even maybe when I
shouldn't and I don't know if that is
something that women experience more or
not but I've had to continually remind
myself hey you know just as much as
anyone in the room on axe that you're
talking about so don't be hesitant don't
feel like an imposter and just remind
myself of that so that I don't think why
do you want me to talk about that how am
I to discuss it and so I think it's like
a check it's a check it's a it's
something inside you that says hmm it
makes you stop and think do it
am I the expert in the room or am I not
the expert in the room and and at
different times it can undermine you and
you don't participate and you when you
should and at other times it maybe
should tell you not to participate I
don't know maybe that's the wrong way to
look at it but I've been in meetings
where I think I know more than the other
person but the other person is simply
insisting that they know the most and
and there's nothing you can do to
convince them otherwise or at least
that's their posture and I think that's
what I actually sorry I'm interested yes
I think that's why I actually think
impostor syndrome and I have it in
spades like everyone it's it's actually
a
humility thing it's a it's a it helps
you sort of think through your role in a
conversation and it can get absolutely
can get in your way but I I would say in
the spirit of you know professional
development or coaching or whatever
we're doing here on this couch today we
all have it like we all have it and
you've got to find your toolkit to work
through it and you've got to figure out
and you are gonna have those people we
all have those people that are just so
officious that even if they you know
they could walk in the building and tell
me something about technology with no
and just the way they say it will stop
me in my tracks and I'll think wow
they're really smart and they know what
they're talking about and maybe maybe
they know something I don't and but you
have like you have to know yourself and
you have to recognize and I think that's
professional development it's it cuts
through I think it does cut through
gender because I have a lot of male
colleagues who have told me in the past
that they have an impostor syndrome but
I think it ties directly to humility and
the knee I think humility is so powerful
I do think saying I don't know something
actually it builds credibility it builds
people think oh wow she's in that role
and she's willing to say she doesn't
know something it's way more powerful
than trying to BS your way through an
answer and have it yeah I don't know I
just I think it's a little bit of both
too I think when you hear that voice in
your head saying you don't know what
you're doing you don't know anything in
the room it's saying hey thanks I've got
this like I know what I love that
feeling that confidence sometimes I feel
like that voice is there to keep you
safe and keep you in your comfort zone
and it's like I'm good thank you but on
that it is actually time ladies for
virtual Q&A with our virtual viewers so
now is in time you'll see a button at
the top right hand corner of your screen
that says Q&A please submit your
questions to the ladies and we will do
our very best to answer them all right
we've got one coming in what advice do
you have for other women just starting
their careers privacy or not new in
their careers and go
oh so in terms of new in their careers
I'm gonna pass on a piece of advice that
I feel like led me to where I am today
and it was super random I moved to
Washington DC without a job slept on a
cousin's couch and I was on the Metro in
Washington DC perhaps going you know for
an informational interview or something
and this random woman on the metro how
we were talking I have no recollection
but she said oh yeah you should just
walk into the Congress and hand them
your resume and you know tell whatever
committee it was that I was interested
in at the time that you want to work for
them and I was like wait I can do that I
can just reach out directly to the
people I want to work with like I don't
have to go through some job board she
was like oh yeah people do it all the
time and I ended up with the job on the
hill by just doing that and so I was I
was blown away by it but my piece of
advice there is if there are people that
you want to work with whether it's an
industry and government or whatever do
your research figure out who's working
in this space you want to work in and
reach out to them often the emails maybe
not public but you could figure it out
so just reach out and I think we're also
always you know happy to help in the
privacy field and talk to folks but
reaching out is what I would recommend
yeah absolutely I have different things
I would say don't have your heart set on
one thing and then only pursue that
because every single opportunity that
you have and you take and you learn it's
a learning one that could take you to
the next thing the greeter was
describing where you thought you were
going to be and where you ended up are
very different I would say I know
yourself gets what what motivates you
what inspires you what what you want to
show you want a place like Rita was
saying early I'm going to point to read
again actually these are words from Rita
it threw me apparently what I'm you know
what kind of work-life balance do you
want to have who do you want to work
with the network is so important and and
I Haunted percent agree with what you're
saying pick up pick a phone email call
reach out to a network reach out to
someone who may
Network used tools like LinkedIn to try
and find people who maybe find people
who know people but then I would say but
it's on you like don't pick up the phone
and call somebody and say hey could you
get me a job it's more could you get me
an interview could you get me you know
could you find a place that maybe I
could learn more about this like explore
explore explore and then once you have
your first job there's a whole other set
of things I would say like do those
things that that maybe put you out of
your comfort zone that maybe definitely
do anything you know try anything try
different things and and and and be open
and and be a continuous learner because
I would say you know graduating with
math degree if you told me even fifteen
years into my career that I'd be in some
sort of tech career I probably would
have told you you were crazy but yeah
common thread between what you both said
that as I was just thinking about that
is that there's a you're actually able
to have a personal relationship with
whoever it is you want to work with so
by going into Congress personally
humanly physically being there they can
see who you are talk to you meet you and
instantly know this is a competent
bright attractive person and I want to
spend more time with her right we live
in such a virtual world everyone's
always texting in social media and
there's like very little human
connection but you'll find that your job
comes when you have a human connection
and you Skype with someone to say hey
I'd like to know more about the job can
I set up a Skype physically see each
other show your face be human it makes a
massive difference on your perception of
someone when you can turn them from a
piece of paper a CV that they've worked
over for hours and hours and hours to an
actual person that you can talk to and
relate to and look in the eyes so if you
have to volunteer to get in the door
anything you can do to be physically in
their space and show who you are as a
human I think is a game-changer to
getting that first job yeah I would say
to once you're in there
yeah advice doesn't change so when
you're in a meeting sit at the table
that's like I read that in a book
somewhere early on sit at a table speak
up if you got interrupted just sort of
stand your ground and make sure that
your voice
to matter because I think that
especially for women I think that
happens to us a lot where we sort of
fade into the background or we we let
others lead in the in in instead of
sticking our neck out or anything like
that but just show up and maybe maybe
this newer generation I'm aging myself
here but maybe maybe it's different I
mean I a lot of my my son's friends
women they're very strong and they're
they really have that sense that they
belong
but in my career I feel like a lot of
times it was you know you just sit in
the back of room and you don't speak
your mind and then you leave and you
think nobody even remembered that you
were there so be present and show up and
everything you're saying make the
personal connections find those
advocates that want to help you look for
mentors don't think you know everything
right out of the gate I I know there's
been nobody that showed up my door it
showed up at my door and asked me for
help that I've said yes ari I don't have
time for you I mean if people really
want to help especially women want to
help women continue to grow and thrive
and if you show interest in in other
people's work whether it's in trying to
get a job if you're interested in that
work and you show interest in what
they're doing whether it's looking for a
mentor or looking for a job I feel like
people love that and you know then
you've made a comment or who I you know
who I still continue to reach out to and
ask for help and guidance who's been
instrumental with my career in the last
year as I've made changes and shifts and
things like that so even again back to
that role modeling I role model that I
need help at this stage in the game and
we all do and that's pretty normal
so which actually leads to my neck next
question mentor or sponsor do you need
one
both does it make a difference you need
both I mean a mentor is there by your
side helping coach you a sponsor is
someone who is there advocating for you
when you're not in the room so that's
the person that's going to talk about
you to get you know in a promotion
discussion or a compensation discussion
or this who do we want to put on this
project discussion you need both and
frequently your mentor can be your
sponsor but not always I mean you you
really want to make sure that you
have both I just say to sure but I think
I surely do believe that a good leader
is someone who can look at all the
people that work for them and have them
actually be in positions as good or
better than the one that they had that
they are there to help their team grow
and thrive in advance rather than
constantly being jealous that they have
to be the boss or they have to have the
swankiest title or whatever because if
you're in an environment where that
leadership always wants to be a senior
and more important and isn't willing to
kind of help you become as good as or
even better like reach another level
within another organization you're gonna
wither you know so that's a hard one but
if you find yourself in a leadership
position how can you set your ego to the
place where you actually want to judge
your success by how well everyone who
worked for you ended up doing in this
world that's what your boss your first
Boston and that's a rare thing and it's
something we should all actually work on
even if it feels too feminine well
embrace that that's exactly what women
should be doing as leaders is to you
know that's why there should be more
women leaders so if your instinct is to
promote others then that would
ultimately make everybody you know
happier in more success need to give
people the opportunity to be in the room
with your boss yeah you need to coach
them to have the confidence perhaps to
present what they have created versus
you constantly having constantly but
taking that from them to present to your
boss and that actually helps you
continue to grow and I would say the
flip side of that is if you're in a role
where your leader isn't doing that for
you if you feel like geez every time I
have a good idea I come up with
something it's my boss who always
presents it or who always takes the
credit for it you maybe need to think
about moving to a different role or a
different leader or having that
conversation sometimes it's just they
may not even be aware and that's you
know a brave thing to to go in and say
hey I would love the opportunity to
present my ideas instead of always
having them done through you but
fantastic advice we have time for one
last question ladies tell us a female
leader in privacy who you admire and why
well you know I feel like I could spend
an entire hour on that question I think
that's why the privacy profession or one
of the reasons it has been so rewarding
there are so many impressive female
leaders so maybe I don't think I could
pick one I've talked about one already
Kristin Jensi who I think plays that
role of of supporting a lot of leaders
in the field and she's built a lot there
are two different women leaders in
privacy in Europe who I have a lot of
admiration for I'm a little nervous
about calling out names you know in a
private secret that's all positive so
one of them is a colleague who taught me
that
if you bring chocolate to a meeting your
meeting will always go better and I
admire her for her diplomacy and also
just for her her creativity and her
determination and that's Isabela Rican
who now runs our kind of set up the
European Data Protection Board and she's
just always been an incredibly
hard-working creative and diplomatic
person and the other person who I have a
lot of admiration for is very well known
in the privacy profession and that is
Helen Dixon who leads the Irish DPA and
I think one thing I've been super
impressed in watching her take over that
position it's kind of remaking that
office she grew it an incredible amount
and making it into an office that is
just incredibly well respected for the
work that they do and also just an
office that really stands up for for
what they believe in and has has engaged
in cases that that are very challenging
and they're always willing to
to take them on and I think that that
takes incredible leadership all right
well thank you ladies that wraps up our
very first live virtual session for
women leading privacy section again I
encourage you to look onto our website
IPP org to learn more about this section
you'll see a survey in the bottom
left-hand corner of your screen please
take our post-event survey we'd love to
hear your feedback so you can provide
more great content for the women leading
privacy section and if you have any
questions don't hesitate to reach out
thank you
you